On Legalizing all Drugs

[Laura Kemp] Yeah. Hi, My name is Laura. Laura, Laura. I respond to both and you're listening to the changing assistant podcast. To be fair with Old noted for a bit, the world can go on as it is, especially now that we've all experienced something so impactful as a global pandemic. I feel like more than ever are all reconsidering things we used to take for granted. So I thought, Let's ask some of the most interesting people I can come up with how we should change the system they're experts on. Let's see how far you get one system at a time. Thank you so much for listening. Lets me Oh, hey guys, happy you're here. In this episode of changing the system, we're going to talk about the future of drugs. It's been a pretty popular topic lately, becoming more mainstream even though you have to be careful with saying that, because what Matron in your own bubble might not be mainstream in other bubbles? But we have seen some policy changes, especially in the USA and Canada, where it comes to marijuana possession and growth, which makes them more progressive now than the Netherlands. Hello, But today we're going to talk about something a lot more radical and that is legalising all drugs. Yes, every single drug and visionary I invited for This is no one else than ties. Roost Ties is a science journalist from Amsterdam. He was head of news for vice. He was correspondent drugs for a magazine called The Correspondent. He has a YouTube channel called Controlled Substance, in which he explains everything about drugs. And very importantly, he is writing a book on the war on drugs. Tyson. I am met in the newsroom in New York, where he was my boss. He was a producer for the foreign correspondent of American News, and I was the intern. Yeah, we've known each other for seven years now. Highs and lows, mostly highs, which is a great bridge to this episode. Let's have a listen to tighten. Thank you so much for joining me on my podcast. Pleasure. We're going to talk about the change in worldwide drug policy. [Thijs Roes] Yeah, hopefully, hopefully the change hopefully to change. I wanted to talk after a while about the issue of legalization of all drugs. It was just I had done a whole bunch of stories and every time it came up like there's a whole bunch of people actually using these substances. We all know that a bunch of these substances that are forbidden might not be so extremely dangerous as they made out to be in the 20th century. So we all know that there's something a little off there. But then I asked that question like, Hey, what if we legalize all drugs? And I called up like then people that were often in the news about George policy issues. And when I touched upon the issue of legalization while they didn't throw the horn on the phone, but they more or less was like, No, we can talk about that because we are, I know publicly funded snow. We can talk about it because we only do cannabis were only cannabis experts that we cannot comment on the legalization off ecstasy or something like that. And it was so weird that in the end, I was stunned after about two days of calling people trying to get a quote on this for my story that in the end I only found one guy off like the legalized foundation on, and he [Laura Kemp] didn't even [Thijs Roes] want to be in the papers. Oh, speak with this full name. I even had the like shorten his last name, Laura's first name, so that he wasn't Google Herbal. And this was five years ago [Laura Kemp] and he was not in the government. No politician, No. [Thijs Roes] He was someone independent ex service with the Legalized Foundation, the foundation's legalize all drugs. And he was even afraid that, like, speak out about this openly. And I was like, Oh, my God, what is this sort of like? [Laura Kemp] How do their boot [Thijs Roes] topic in this liberal country, the Netherlands, that supposedly, is so open intolerance and what not? And, um, I first wanna know if your computer is [Laura Kemp] working. Where were you while you were noticing there was a big taboo? What? We're trying to get information, even from activists, [Thijs Roes] and in the end, I just sort of decided, OK, then I'll just write about it myself. It's just like a person like, Hey, here's like a column asking this question. Could we legalize all drugs? I thought the question was interesting because it's like it's kind of like peeking into the future to see what good or what would happen. But On the other hand, it was also like a quest for knowledge. It's just like a diversity of curiosity, my own curiosity. There were so many things that I didn't understand. It's like there were so many things about addiction that I didn't get is like, How can video games be addictive? Can sugar be addictive? But also heroin? Like, I saw these ads for video games like the Most addictive game ever, and that was like, OK, and then [Laura Kemp] now it's almost like a promotional tackling [Thijs Roes] social tagline that it was so, so addictive. But then we're super afraid about it when it comes to heroin. Yet heroin is a painkiller that's being prescribed not in that form as a heroin, but like, similar for as morphine or like any other system molecule by doctors. And then so there were so many philosophical questions like, Hey, when is it okay to use these chemicals for certain effects and when is it not? And I don't know, like, um, have [Laura Kemp] any answers to that question. [Thijs Roes] I mean, yes, in the end, I figured out that everything about a drug policy is culture policy. Yes, of course, there are dangerous drugs that are forbidden, and they are forbidden because there are dangerous. And that's good. Like fentanyl, for example, something that's so strong that I don't think that any non professional should ever touch. But if alcohol, for example, is the most obvious example is by all the science that we know one of the most dangerous drugs that we know yet it is in our supermarkets. Whenever you go to a race game, people spray each other with alcohol when they want a game like and it's a complete cultural thing and we're not. We're not cracking down on it. We're not making the rules any stricter on it. Tobacco sort of same thing. We are making the rules of stricter on it. But then read is super weird. So in the end, because it's like in many countries sort of like a halfway thing because people understand that it doesn't kill you weed but has set of risks. Yeah, like not doing your homework is paranoia, paranoia exactly, and eso That's why it's not so harshly enforced in most countries. So I quickly started understanding that there are more forces involved than just how bad they are, and I just came to the conclusion that is culture. It's got culture is we don't we don't accept certain things in our society as a culture, and certain cultures are more open to accepting them and other cultures, arm or restrictive and and And it varies from country to country, and it varies from drug to drug, right? There's so much machinery involved in this as well. So you have so many people who don't know anything about these drugs, like even the term drugs. We're talking about dozens of different molecules with dozens of different effects, which all our is different from one another, as skiing is from visiting Disneyland's and, you know, and a wide range of experiences in between. Yet there being regulated only on basis of their risks, not off the basis of their benefits, and then add in the whole bunch of 100 year long racism classism, Andi just simply ignorance, a simple ignorance. And that's what drug policy is. And I always hate sounding like some sort of like weird fringe are exorcist when I say it. But I say there's only because I dove into it, and I very often when I went to like, ask myself the question. What was the first moment this drug was introduced into a society on what was the response? Political response, You know, health response to this drug and in 80% of the cases off all the big drugs. It's just like complete bullshit stories that landed these substances on scheduled lists, which then sort of trickle down throughout society. And nobody asked a question anymore, like, Why are these drugs actually illegal? [Laura Kemp] So first they make it legal, and later they try to justify that with science or excuses. [Thijs Roes] You are exactly, He goes over ago was goes the other way around right. And nowadays you have all these measures and all these ah guidelines on how drugs should be made illegal. And I've seen the process at work there. Hammer pieces. It happens once a year in Vienna, there's a big hall of the United Nations that comes together to see Andy, the Commission on Narcotic Drugs and just a guy from probably the World Health Organization. Or maybe some other sort of like big stature organization comes into the hall on just basic says we have to his new thing. It's blah, blah blah 0.8. Whatever Fenton. Ill way have No, it is known to cause harms all in favour of banning this. Yeah, all against. No hands being raised. [Laura Kemp] Is that your opinion? [Thijs Roes] No, sir, it does. This is the United Nations. Okay, so I saw, like, 10 new drugs being forbidden within one hour and no, no objections whatsoever. Because nobody knows what. As if as if the these diplomats that are in there are health experts or drug expert. [Laura Kemp] So how should it [Thijs Roes] work then? Oh, good one. How should it work? How it should work is that you look at a certain substance and you just look at it like, OK, what? Why do people use it? That's one. So what's the setting in which people use it? And for what reason? Then what are its health risks? And how can we mitigate these health risks? The best. So if we talk about something like coffee, it's like people use it to get up in the morning. And so there's probably a whole bunch of people that no one in heaven, it convenient locations. Is that Is coffee OK or is it not OK? I think it's OK, We should be ableto openly salads in supermarkets. Whatever. Then when it comes to candidates like there's some war risks. So you need you need a minimum age. You want to really think about your advertising like they shouldn't be able to advertise. But besides that, So this couple of maybe some information on the counter like, Hey, if you use gonna mix, maybe you should be aware of this in this in this net and you're done. Yeah. So [Laura Kemp] each drug, individually, [Thijs Roes] it's drug. Yet there's so many drugs that each drug individually and then you can maybe group a couple together something like magic mushrooms, which no, our psychedelic just like LSD. Well, maybe something like the empty, the whole group, those together. Maybe then you can do it the same way as cannabis. But maybe you need, like, some sort of like exam or some sort of permit, like like we know for like if you want a weapon, if you want a weapon in the Netherlands, you can. There's gun clubs that you can go to. You have to go through like old unnecessary courses and then you can get a weapon. Well, I think if you if we could do it weapons, I think we should be able to do it with psychedelics. And you could also think that maybe there needs to be some sort of. It's not a theory examined. Maybe it's like a club or like a health club, something like a meditation center ish thing that only they can give. [Laura Kemp] People will will prepare themselves for their first trip, have to pass a test, maybe a medical examination. Can you handle it and then, yeah, try it out, Then you have to go through a personal process, and you really have to want it as well, so that we're also exclude risk for people who just randomly think, Oh, your pressure [Thijs Roes] here in the Netherlands For a few years ago, there was a girl who committed suicide, and her friend said that she was on mushrooms and it was like a big deal here. And then for a short while the idea was floated Teoh, for example, for tourists to have, like a two day waiting period that when you land in Amsterdam, you can say like Hey, I want mushrooms, and only two days later you can come pick him up so that you have two days to like, Think about where you're going. [Laura Kemp] What reminds me of abortion? [Thijs Roes] Oh, God. [Laura Kemp] I mean, you have awaiting talent. If you want to have an abortion as a woman, you have a couple of days of yeah, time mandatory. [Thijs Roes] Oh, my God. Yeah, That happens in that I didn't even know. I thought that was like an extremist Mississippi type thing. Really? Wow. Okay, look. Something similar? Yeah, like reading periods. The thing with the war on drugs is as long as drugs are illegal, the war on drugs, perpetual, no matter how you put it, if you want to talk about a system they have in Portugal or hair in Amsterdam, it's the criminalization. Which means that you may be no, don't go after users. But the producers are still producing this illegally. And there needs to be in my vision in my the scenarios that I built. It's like you can make excess super restrictive as long as there some legal path towards them. If you make the thresholds too high for people to get these substances, they will go back to due to the black market again. So That's one thing. So you want to make the stressful so high enough so that people consider the health risks yet low enough so that people can still accept them? Yes, it [Laura Kemp] takes a lot of effort. [Thijs Roes] Yeah, they sort of mix a bit of effort. And and I'm really against the commercialisation. Like I see the same thing happening with cannabis now in the United States, where, you know, certain states are just too friendly towards big money s, so to speak. And big money, big money is really the enemy of health. People always talk about drug pushers, you know, but drug pushers can exist legally as well. And they can have. They can rent huge billboards and they can push drugs on people. I think the most ideal future of drugs is one in which they are legally available for those who want it yet are not being pushed by commercialisation on people. So [Laura Kemp] how does that work then? [Thijs Roes] Well, uh, for example, uh, you can test your drugs here in the in Amsterdam. If you in this legal market, there is, luckily some sort of way to see what's in your bill. But if I tell you this now, like you have never seen where this location is. You have to go online and find out where this place is because you are within that niche that needs to know about it. It's the same thing. I think, for something like a place that can sell drugs in the future, where if you are in the know you just Google, it's or you just know, like where the service, the psychedelic service is over there for whatever it is. You come there and there's no big like neon signs. There's just the door and maybe we'll say, psychedelic services you want. And then there's just so [Laura Kemp] it's not being promoted [Thijs Roes] as not being promoted. No advertisements, no, no overly big billboards outside. No, no discounts. You know, it's just it is what it is branding you could talk about like the inspiration comes from Off comes from everywhere. I was once in a tobacco shop close to my place. I think I was looking for postcards and it was a literal tobacco shop. They didn't have anything else except maybe so chewing gum. And there was this girl there, and this girl came up to me is like, Hey, if you tried the new Pall Mall, whatever new cigarettes and I was like No. And by the way, is this not illegal what you're doing? And she said, No. If you are within a real tobacco shop, some form of promotion is allowed. Uh, yeah, and I would [Laura Kemp] once you're into space, [Thijs Roes] once you're in the space, once you're already in that bubble, I can imagine that it doesn't. In my honest opinion, it doesn't necessarily need to be like a white packaging healthy you got then the Germans, whatever. If you can have some branding, but let's not push it on people because we have so far only talked about drugs that are non addictive. If you start talking about things like speed, like amphetamines or cocaine or heroin, you get into different types of models. We all saw what happened in the United States, where paying bills were being pushed on people by doctors. And then it's not the doctors pushing it so much on the patients. But it's it's big pharma, pushing it down the doctors so that it just pops up in the mind of a doctor a little bit quicker than them before and that's that's you see that all the time. So I am not naive to what could happen if you start legalizing these things. But I'm saying it's not a revolution like the future of drugs is not a revolution that we need should start. We should start tomorrow, but it doesn't happen within one day. It's like a step by step by step by step program and seeing what happens and seeing works. E. I mean, there were so many things wrong with the war on drugs that there's the level of knowledge is so incredibly low, like people don't know what the difference between M. D. M. A and L s three years, for example, or giving a clear definition of what addiction is is really hard. In the end, I sort of saw it was my rule to just turn it into a vision more than that I keep on. I didn't wanna go into the bullshit that was being spread because of the way she only talking about bullshit. Even if you're trying to sort of, like, effect check people, you're still Joyce bonding, responding to be Oh, yeah, so what? I rather just do is just talk about how the how this future could look like by comparing it to things that people already know. So that's what I try. And then in that way I can. And if people ask me a an honest question about my my own experience with these substances, I will also gladly tell them, because I feel that, you know, there's in the Netherlands. There's more than a 1,000,000 people have tried India, May and maybe five of them have been on television. Admitting such coming out is part of part of the [Laura Kemp] process. The honesty will will come back to that later. And why you Thais? Why are you that the chosen person is the [Thijs Roes] burden I have to carry Laura? It's the [Laura Kemp] froth ties roost in Holland is You are the drugs guy, [Thijs Roes] I guess, I guess. But I think it's true. It's true. It's a status. But I am interested in so many things, like I a big astronomy fan as well and a big fan of sustainability and all that stuff, [Laura Kemp] and [Thijs Roes] then every now and then like I get the feel like, Oh God, why? Why aren't there 10 other Tyce is to do this. Please, please show yourselves and do this because there's a whole bunch of people that are super good in drug education or data processing or out of the box thinking they'll exist here or love yeast. Or, you know. But there's just one, maybe two, journalists that I may be one or two journalist that I trust with correct storytelling about drugs because I mean it. When you look at this from a media perspective, it's like the weirdest thing ever, where these 1,000,000 people that use it, they don't talk. So the the experts of the people who views that they shut up about it. Then again, at the same time, the amount of bullshit is overwhelming about these drugs and the bad consequences off the war on drugs. So crime and health issues are blamed on the drugs themselves and not on the system in which they're being used. So the moment you start talking about drugs, you already 10 0 behind and it's sometimes it feels a little bit like a burden, like my parents, for example, my poor mom, like it hasn't helped. It hasn't helped the relationship at all, so sometimes I would rather not talk about it, but it is such a corny, but it sometimes it feels more like a duty than it started out of love. And now, many, often times, I got out of that out of duty and not out off your love. Because I know that because I love I'm a researcher, and I'm a journalist, and I sort of know, I got the answers I was looking for. [Laura Kemp] But now you need to communicate [Thijs Roes] with the rest of the world. That's a lot of work. [Laura Kemp] Yeah, well, I think you're doing very well. I [Thijs Roes] have to finish. It's just a long process. And right now, I already wrote, like a whole bunch. It's just the editing check back in the next summer and see where I am. Okay. Okay. Taking half your leaps. I used to [Laura Kemp] think drug use is innate to the human race. Yeah, [Thijs Roes] of course. Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it doesn't have to be in a fascist society. I think you should be. You could be ableto maybe get rid of all drug use in some sort of way. Although people start sniffing glue, I guess then it's I say yes, only because it's that's that's what I know. Maybe there's a Maybe there's a dimension in which humans or animals don't use anything, but especially at nights. I think a lot of people really love to unwind in a certain point in a certain way, and cigarettes of always being will not always with less 10,000 years have been part her culture. So e. I think so. And I mean to me, it's, um I don't have any moral judgments against people that want to use drugs. And so many of the drugs have been so special experience for me myself like that. I also don't want to deny people this these experiences. [Laura Kemp] Yeah, because your epiphany came doing your first LSD trip. [Thijs Roes] I was on my first LSD trip, I think. No first LSD trip I ever took. I just watched Lord of the Rings okay became a lifelong fan, but [Laura Kemp] there was one in particular that [Thijs Roes] I mean, it really speaks to like how it's not the drug itself. That or a psychedelic itself that can cause a sort of like life changing experience. It's George, always about set and setting which mindset you have but also where you use it. It was this one day that sort of like, really challenged. Like many of the moral conceptions I had about drugs and drug use, like the taboo like Oh my God, it's unhealthy or whatever. I went to a house in a forced with a friend of mine, my best friends, and, uh, we went on a bike ride and dropped acids, and it was like this beautiful spring day and the cows out in the field and things were in bloom and the river was flowing through way. Looked down on this fairly, and it was just so nice and like, the first thing that we said is like, Oh my God, we never realized how beautiful the Netherlands is. It's actually they're certain bars here that are stunning, and we had never realized something like that. We thought it was old, flat and ugly, and no, it wasn't. It was super nice. So we had this fantastic day already like out and about, and we bike all the way home, and LSD lasts for about 10 hours. So I was like in about the seventh hour or so of this trip, we come back to the house and my friends like, Hey, I'm going out for a smoke and I'm like, OK, I guess a cigarette, the cigarettes are you smoking is a cigarette? Yeah, and I'm like, Yeah, sure. I think I'll join you. But this was what was going on. I had been trying to quit for, like, a long time. And right before this weekend started, hey had forced me to buy my own cigarettes because I was like a super annoying smoker. I only bumped cigarettes off of all the people always and was like, If you're gonna bump cigarettes off me the whole weekend, then I'm you know, I'm gonna not have enough cigarettes for myself. So, uh, uh, you said just by your own back by your own picks, I reluctantly had bought my own back because I thought, like, this will make me smoke more. And I don't want to smoke. I was looking at this package this this cigarette package while my friend was outside smoking and I was still sort of like, contemplating like I don't really well, Irish, shall I Nuts and I like focusing. Attention is super in super important with a psychedelic trip. So if you don't magically change your behavior by not thinking about something, you really have to sort, like, study and almost meditate on what it is you're trying to solve. At that moment, I wasn't trying to solve anything. I was just looking at the back, and I realized a couple of like, super banal, basic things that everybody knows. Like smoking is unhealthy but also if, like I feel an urge to now join my friend. But is more about me wanting to go aside. If there would be orange juice waiting for me over there, I would gladly just try the orange juice. It's a social thing, you socio something. I wanted something, and maybe it's like an oral fixation. I don't know what it is. And then in the end, it's like I also realized, like move This LSD is like as a drug like from a drug perspective, this LSD is like a really intense, magical Weird's monumental is thing that's happening to me, and having a cigarette is what, like a small little rush, like as a drug, nicotine is like really boring. That's what I also realized, like nobody ever says, like, Hey, let's use nicotine tonight. You know, that's not what you do. Um, so it really felt like Is that really is that boring drug really worse? Like dying 10 years earlier over, You know, And I got answers to all these basic banal questions in a way that that and the LSD made them feel much more profound because they were profound. They are basic questions, but they instantly got ingrained into my system in a sort of way, like I almost felt sort of like some of the switches in my brain of thoughts off thought loops that always went like, Oh, I want to smoke. Let's go out for a cigarette. I shouldn't do this but fuck, it's eliminations Exactly. Suddenly I felt that being broken, some couple of switches being flipped and and I was like, So I'm not gonna smoke anymore. Don't I'm I'm just not going to smoke anymore. And I walk outside and I tell this to my friend like, Hey, I think I just quit smoking and he's like, Dude, it doesn't It doesn't work that way. I'm like, OK, but I didn't smoke that day. I didn't smoke today after on a Monday, I come into the office and I think I tell my this device office in Amsterdam and I, uh I tell my colleagues what happened and I said said, Like, I think I quit smoking And they said, Well, if in two months you haven't touched the cigarettes, yes, then you can write the story. Well, it was a breeze I didn't want to smoke anymore, Andi. In the end, I wrote my story about it because it was such a conundrum. It was like on one hand, I had toe sort of feel guilty about the LSD trip that I took because it was illegal. But it helped me quit a legal drug that was super unhealthy for me. So how how can it be that my morality is so defined by the fact that it's illegal, even though the experience was so positive, and that was really like a breaking point for me because I posted this story online, but it was also for me, or almost like coming out like a I used an illegal substance, something publicly acknowledged before. On the other hand, also, this sort of like moral thing where I just realized like, Oh, there are a couple of drugs in that long list of drugs that actually almost supports. And there are a bunch of drugs that I hate. And [Laura Kemp] yes, Oh, you you got so much more inside into your own belief [Thijs Roes] system. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, because of things that happened to me. Because the things that I experienced on these drugs and so hard to to even convey this points to people because they haven't experienced it. It's something that it was such a personal experience for me that I cannot I can only fell about people about it. But I can ever convince people really off something. I told myself I was never gonna talk about this story again. But I smoke crack for journalism. [Laura Kemp] Wait, What? [Thijs Roes] I smoke crack for journalism. Whoa, on. Uh and I had already written the entire story thinking I knew what I was talking about. And then I found this guy who had sort of girl, actually, who had crack, and I was like, Just give me a hit. I wanted to see what it is. And I instantly realized that the effect that you get off it is exactly the same as when you snort It's just a little bit quicker and intense. Er but the actual effects that you feel for 20 minutes is no difference from the expensive cocaine that you know from, like Wall Street. Or, uh, you know, lawyers or whatever You whoever uses it. And I thought it was so interesting that the drug itself had so many cultural stigmas more than Coke Crack. Yeah, they're really more than more than coke. Even though the feeling that these people were after it was exactly the same and I would have never been known that like I try, I think I tried to find it beforehand and people were not even able toe Explain to me What Correct. Waas Really so moments like that really taught me is like, OK, I still have all these morally reprehensible against I off course I'm not objective. I cannot be in because everybody has an opinion about drugs. But in this case, it really taught me that made my story better and more truthful. [Laura Kemp] Yeah, [Thijs Roes] so, you know, [Laura Kemp] maybe you kind of overestimated crack in a way. Yeah, and it's effects on [Thijs Roes] everybody said, of course. Oh, my God, Aren't you afraid that your analogic sits? It's like, yeah, you can be kind of a five hour discussion about that, about simply deadline. Yeah, still not still not know it, but But I usually hope to be defined by I think, personally more is not so much the fact that I'm not only advocating for the legalization of drugs, but I'm still tethered to like reality that I that I'm very aware of both the health risks and the social stigma. Yet we have to find a way out of this like because if we don't the war in Texas, just perpetual and decriminalization will not help that. That just means that you don't go after a few people. But you hide this discussion from public view because criminals will still supply the market. The only thing I want is that people can start considering legalization as a real option and ask themselves, Okay, if we legalised and how how should we do it? Not from for me. It's not so much if if we should legalize, because we we should legalize all drugs in a certain way. But how? It's, by the way, don't get me wrong. I think that, for example, heroin, cocaine and meth I don't see any sort of like I don't want them in stores. I think that it's only four people are really addictive. I think we should lead in those cases. We should legalize drugs that are very similar to these three, but way less risky. So, for example, Coca. Okay, I would first like to try it out with coca leaf. I have it here. It's [Laura Kemp] just a reference tights. Just showing me a bit of coca leaf. [Thijs Roes] I think this is my friend brother from Colombia, and they say that they think the cocaine out of it, but it's coca leaf tea. So if you have read [Laura Kemp] thank you. Hi. Already. [Thijs Roes] If you if you drink the whole, uh, if you make tea out the whole package, then a little bit but not hides it's an upper. So yeah, yeah, go. Belief is really if you look at the cocaine in coca leaf, it's such a low those that health risks are so neck, neck, neck, like a collectible Dutch cheese That that I say Okay, if you legalize go belief or cocaine as like an ingredient, then cocaine chewing gum, for example. I would rather have people being taking to cocaine chewing gum on the dance forward and starting. Okay? And [Laura Kemp] but if the effect is not the same, [Thijs Roes] So the effect has to be at least a 50%. Yeah, because what you see in an illegal drug market, you saw this prohibition. The best is that people one bang for their buck. So everybody grabs like the most powerful, potent substance over something that is, you know, way less effective, so to speak. If we had forbidden coffee, illegal coffee would be espresso. Everybody would be drinking espressos because you just want that Shafi was shot. You one quick, easy to transport small substances as much bang for your buck. So everybody during Prohibition started drinking whiskey in an illegal cocaine markets. Older cocaine tooth droplets disappeared. The cocaine chewing gum disappeared to coca tea. This spirit it'll disappeared. And the only thing that really remained is cocaine. The most potent version of this drug. If you start legalizing all these other softer versions of the same ultimate, it's the same molecule. But just in lower dosages and different types of intake, you will not get 100% of the cocaine markets. Of course not. You will probably even right in the amount of people that will start using cocaine. But you will definitely get a part off the cocaine market and will normalize cocaine in such a way that if people want to use cocaine, they will probably just order coca leaves and make it themselves, which is also not ideal and stuff. But I I say like I've tried to envision beyond that. But if if we are not successful and even legalizing cannabis or India May right now, then it's really hard toe Ask guys who's to come up with, like, all the fucking solutions for everything s So it's like, OK, I can I can think until a certain point and after that just becomes too much of like I'm not the genie from Aladdin, you know, it's like I don't They cannot go after everyone, so they have to go after some and that's it's not corruption, luckily, but it is bill occur. What is that in English and random? So who they go after has an element of randomness, which makes it unfair in a A judicial systems Besides that if you just kind of look at violent conflicts, let's X for a moment, as if there's no war over land or religion by now, because war is really waiting all over the world like less and less military conflicts all over the world for just great. But there's one that happens in each and every country, and that's the war on drugs. And it's being fought by mostly police against cartels, with some regular citizens in the mix and sometimes a lot of citizens in the mix. And it's a waste of money. It's a it's it doesn't help the public health. It worsens public health in so many ways. And that's sort of the thing that I think the thing that's been bothering me so much is that the the reason why we're not fixing it is sort of like moral reputation against drugs, but not because it's the rational thing to do. And to me, it's more sense, in a way, simple to do. It's not simple to do it like you need a huge effort, but it's also it's not the Israeli Palestinian conflict, so to speak. There's not a deep, deep resentment. It's some It's just okay. There's a bunch of people who want to do magic mushrooms. Sure, under these conditions, fine liking rifle residents, whatever you know. But for some reason, we have said no, no, we can't and that doesn't make any real sense. Doesn't make any reasons again for me, it's it's it's a direction of thinking, and I don't have all the solutions. But I do think that if people start to understand more off okay, by the way, not all drugs are the same. There are low risk drugs and iris drugs. Let's not legalize everything in one day. But let's take time and at least consider the possibility. And let's sometimes legalize certain drugs that are harmful but not so harmful as there are so like big evil brother or sister. So, by the way, I'm for the legalization of opium. I think we should bring opium back instead of heroin. Not really, but it's like I'd rather have opium and heroin. [Laura Kemp] Wow, Ladies and gentlemen, that Waas ties roots. I'm sure we could have pulled this into him for a lot longer, and you can you can follow him on his YouTube page controlled substance or on Twitter at ties routes that it's T h I J S r O E s. And let's all stalk him to make sure he hurries up with its book Plunge. The world needs it. What do I have to add? After all of this, I don't want to sound boring, but I generally agree with ties. Personally, I am a total grandma, and I always advise everyone to be really careful with drugs with system. Right now, it's just not working, and it's dangerous. It might be good to have a look at how Portugal dated. They decriminalized old drugs in 2001 and addiction has lowered, and healthcare workers there say that it's a much safer environment to work in right now and more effective. So why don't all other countries follow suit? And if the answer is cultural than how do we change the culture? You know what? I think there's a big role to play for recreational users. Yes, I'm talking to you. I mean, is interesting how our generation is still aware of where food comes from, how far closer being produced and we'll wanting to work on a better world. But when it comes to party drugs. We don't really care and we should, because we're complacent if we don't. So let's demand fair trade MD may and conflict free coca leaves. We should dream big. And that's what this podcast was all about anyway. So I hope you enjoyed listening. I hope you learn something. I hope you're inspired. And if you have any ideas on the future of drugs and legalization, or maybe you think it's a horrible idea, reach out and join the conversation. And the big banks to Unocal is for the edit and in the blue for the music goodbye and for the Duchess do.